Dear Mr. and Mrs. Cheung: Can We Talk?
Posted by Phoenix Woman on November 23, 2007
It’s about your son, David — or Dave, as I understand he prefers to be known.
You see, there’s this woman, Jade Raymond, who helps create video games (her current job title is “producer”). She’s been involved in the video game field for many years, in many different positions, and is known by her colleagues as a clever, hardworking and talented programmer and producer. Her most famous recently-produced game is called Assassin’s Creed.
Unfortunately for Ms. Raymond, she also happens to be both pretty and Eurasian, two things that seem to bring out the worst in male gamers. Equally unfortunately, your son Dave is at the forefront of this, making a comic that strongly suggests that a) Ms. Raymond is too stupid to be able to create a videogame and b) got where she is by giving her sexual favors to others. (You really probably don’t want to see the whole thing, so here’s a link to a post with one of the least-offensive panels.)
When your son was taken to task about this, he responded by making this cartoon as well as a celebratory post boasting of what he’d done. (This last link is to a quotation in full of what his post looks like now; I’m posting that in case he finds out that there’s a chance you might actually see it and realize what he’s been up to, and he decides to try to eliminate some of the worst evidence. Here’s the direct link.)
I’m sure that I need not recite to you the long history of racist Western assumptions concerning the sexuality of Asian women. One would think that a person in his mid-twenties might be mature enough to understand these issues and feel compassion and empathy, but his attitudes towards women seem to be stuck at the level of an adolescent racist BNP supporter.
At any rate, he needs a good talking-to by persons whose opinion he might have a chance of valuing.
November 23, 2007 at 11:58 am
This guy sounds like a real piece of work.
But if he managed to get into his mid-20s with that large a load of crap between his ears, nobody is going to “talk” any sense into him at all.
The only way he’s going to learn diddly is to fuck up bigtime, get busted for it, and have to re-assemble himself from a collection of parts on the floor.
Otherwise, my prognosis for him is poor-to-hopeless.
Unfortunately, this sort of sociopathy will not guarantee such an outcome. He fits in all too well in the business world.
I have seen people like this singlehandedly take down companies.
November 23, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Oh, I’m pretty sure that he’s unreachable by normal means, Stormie. But somehow I have a feeling that Mister Tough Guy would probably not like it one little bit if his mother found out what he and his buddies think of women. He has all the earmarks of somebody who’s bold and “edgy” so long as Mummy doesn’t know. Yeah, he’s 25, but in the regressive-adolescent world of male gamers, chronological and emotional age aren’t always (or even usually) going to match up.
November 23, 2007 at 10:38 pm
It’s funny that he’s accusing his critics of being too uptight and morally anal when he’s the one displaying the “women must be pure innocent angels purely for my lust and expect to be treated like human beings or they become sluts and I will hate them” attitude. >:|
He’s not cutting edge. He’s stuck in the 1800s.
November 24, 2007 at 2:07 pm
That’s exactly it, Ami. And his defenders share that mindset. “The woman tempted me!”
November 24, 2007 at 4:25 pm
“Oh, I’m pretty sure that he’s unreachable by normal means, Stormie. But somehow I have a feeling that Mister Tough Guy would probably not like it one little bit if his mother found out what he and his buddies think of women. He has all the earmarks of somebody who’s bold and “edgy” so long as Mummy doesn’t know. Yeah, he’s 25, but in the regressive-adolescent world of male gamers, chronological and emotional age aren’t always (or even usually) going to match up.”
Hey now! That sounds like some good ‘ol fashioned sexism right there at the end.
How would you like it if people were sexist to you? Oh that’s right, you already think they are!
I forgot that it’s totally okay when you’re doing to others but when a guy makes a joke about a lesbian or talks about some girl in a sexual manner, it’s time to burn our bras and cry about how unfair and chauvinistic everything is.
Anyway, good job. I’m sure ‘blogging’ about this whole situation (that is only been brought to its current level of retardery thanks to people like you) is totally going to stick it to him! It’s going to get him good! His parents are totally going to come here and read this and then they’ll be mad! Oh they’ll ground him for sure!
That Dave Cheung won’t get any dessert for a week now thanks to you!
You: 1
Dave Cheung (AKA ANGRY PENISES): 0
November 24, 2007 at 4:35 pm
“blah”. Very appropriate pseudonym.
Some people just cannot resist sticking pins into other people over the Internet and watching them jump. It’s anonymous. It’s easy. And it’s fun. If you’re a borderline psychopath, anyway.
But the world is chock-full of these. So watching another one crawling out from under the woodwork isn’t exactly news. “blah”, indeed.
November 24, 2007 at 11:11 pm
Basically Dave’s point is he can make crude, childish jokes and insults about anyone he wants, but if people call him on it and insult him back then they’re a lot of rude things I won’t bother to type here. Obviously, he’s not going to ever own up to making an ass of himself while trying to be funny, because it’s not his problem, it’s the rest of the world’s.
I remember feeling that way when I was in my teens. Everyone was against me, and I was always right and therefore, I felt free to bandy about all sorts of insults. 25 is pushing it a bit.
What’s better if someone is pretending to be edgy or whatever it is he’s supposed to be in his own mind, is that they realize while walking the edge it’s very easy to fall over it. And hurt people and get hurt in return. You know, rather than pitch a baby fit over soiling himself. Which is what Davey’s done.
November 25, 2007 at 12:05 am
You got it, Joel. Hence the public appeal to his parents: It’s pretty obvious that the lad’s still thirteen emotionally, whatever his chronological age is. And if he actually has managed to have a loving sexual relationship with anything besides his own hand or an inflatable doll, I’d be very surprised.
November 25, 2007 at 12:07 am
Great idea! I wonder though, how great is the likelihood that Dave C’s parents would ever get to see this. I also wonder if the parents wouldn’t be enablers and excusers for their golden son’s bad behaviour - it’s not an unknown phenomenon.
November 25, 2007 at 9:42 pm
“Yeah, he’s 25, but in the regressive-adolescent world of male gamers, chronological and emotional age aren’t always (or even usually) going to match up.”
“Hey now! That sounds like some good ‘ol fashioned sexism right there at the end.”
Not really. Just ol’fasioned idiotism. An ism. Against idiots. Yeah. It was more like an off-the-cuff psychological analysis of a cultural sub-group, than a blanket attack on a gender. Yeah, it was couched in gendered terms, I’ll grant you, but its more of the same sort of comment as “All emos are whiney” and “Everyone who posts on Something Awful is a maladjusted passive-aggressive troll.” Y’know. That kinda thing.
I forgot that it’s totally okay when you’re doing to others but when a guy makes a joke about a lesbian or talks about some girl in a sexual manner, it’s time to burn our bras and cry about how unfair and chauvinistic everything is.
I’m a gonna share something I’ve learned. Okay? Here it is.
You don’t get to choose what people get offended by.
Yeeeess, you can talk about lesbians and other women in a manner that amuses you. Doesn’t make it right. And you don’t get to say, “They should be OK with me calling them nasty names, and how dare they take that small joy, that one activity that still brings a smile to my blasted existence- insulting people I don’t really understand*- away from me.”
I’ve always thought of political correctness not as a list of things you Shall and Shan’t Do, but rather a way of saying, “Hey, there’s other people out there in The World, and they don’t automatically agree with you. So just think a moment before you hurt their feelings.” I guess, what I’m trying to say, is either you’re the kind of person who can/wants to express an opinion in a manner that needn’t offend someone, or you don’t care who you piss off in order to get your “lulz.”
—
Yours, Owesome
Another Anonymous Net Dude.
*Who knows, though? Blah could be a hermaphroditic lecturer on gender studies at Berkley, or a volunteer at Women’s Refuge, or what-have-you, and be able to couch his jokes about lesbians and appreciative comments regarding Hawt Chixx0rz in a deep understanding and appreciation of the world-view and societal experience of lesbians and other women. I’ll concede that point.
November 26, 2007 at 2:29 am
“Not really. Just ol’fasioned idiotism. An ism. Against idiots. Yeah. It was more like an off-the-cuff psychological analysis of a cultural sub-group, than a blanket attack on a gender. Yeah, it was couched in gendered terms, I’ll grant you, but its more of the same sort of comment as “All emos are whiney” and “Everyone who posts on Something Awful is a maladjusted passive-aggressive troll.” Y’know. That kinda thing.”
Funnily enough, that’s exactly my point.
A lot of things are like that… and then you have those who feel self-righteous enough about some sort of “cause” to feel victimized in response to similar off-the-cuff remarks that happen to be directed at them or their own personal interests.
For example, just because I used sarcasm to point out a little irony and a little misconception, I’ve already been accused of “sticking pins” into people through the anonymity of the internet–nevermind the fact that in their own way this is exactly what the author was trying to do to someone she sees as treading all over her own personal values and ideals. Basically, its hypocritical to lash out and see sexism everywhere and furthermore to try and pin it all “on the guys” because through doing so you are proving yourself to be the only one who is sexist in the situation.
I’m not going to defend the subject this whole letter is indirectly directed towards, but I am going to point out that it’s a bit of a leap to jump on the sexism bandwagon simply because the subject of his comic happened to be a female who was portrayed in a way that stereotypically describes a female in that situation (ie. whoring). This sort of implies that if you’re a woman you shouldn’t be made fun of or ridiculed, or at least not in “that way”, which is a bit of a double standard, kind of against equality for the sexes, and is just plain not in touch with what’s really going on here.
Basically, to make the assumption that he is just secretly mad at her for “being a woman” “who’s hot” and “in a man’s profession” is going just a liiiitle overboard. And the only reason you are making this assumption is in fact because he is a he. If Dave was really Daphne, I doubt any of you would be saying much because you would find some way to “okay” it and rationalize it. “Oh, it’s cool. She’s just making a statement and a joke about how everyone is treating her and what everybody is acting like she is! Plus, that whole rumor that she’s going around posing for guy magazines! Yay!”
“I’m a gonna share something I’ve learned. Okay? Here it is.
You don’t get to choose what people get offended by.”
Fair enough, but you do get to point out that they are being a little ridiculous when they do.
Hopefully this will at least add a touch of common-sense here and there and maybe will get through that whole persona-barrier thing so that they might stop once in a while and think, “Man, what the hell? Why am I even mad at this? Who cares?!” thus, we wouldn’t have to hear about it everytime someone saw half a nipple on TV and decided to bitch about it and start a wave of campaign to get the show thrown off the air… for the kids.
“Yeeeess, you can talk about lesbians and other women in a manner that amuses you. Doesn’t make it right. And you don’t get to say, “They should be OK with me calling them nasty names, and how dare they take that small joy, that one activity that still brings a smile to my blasted existence- insulting people I don’t really understand*- away from me.””
Heh, doesn’t make it wrong either… and it’s not about them being OK or not, it’s that in order to be upset and cry victim when somebody teases you or makes fun of you, you kind of have to not ever do it to anyone else, or else you’re just a hypocrit who can’t take their own behavior when directed at them. Plus, again, that whole self-righteous thing. Some people think they should somehow be given special priviledges just because they think a certain way or belong to a certain social group.
Did you know that in any given “cause” only about 10% actually care about the cause and have thought about it, while the rest are just simply there because they want to “feel good” about “doing something”? This means that most feminists are pretty much only there to whine about how hard they have it and so they can have a convenient excuse for why the world doesn’t work the way they think it should and how “it’s not fair”. The minority actually care about advancing the rights and equality of women.
In any case, as an aside, men and women simply aren’t equal and never will be. They aren’t equal because that’s just not how it is. Everything in our genes and in our natures goes against this idea simply because men and women are different. While it is true (and something I am a FIRM believer in) men and women are (and SHOULD be) of equal VALUE, they are not equal in nature, and they are simply not equals to each other. Each has their own particular charms and quirks and all those little things that make them what they are and give them that uniqueness. They both have their own particular drives and interests and likes and dislikes, and that’s exactly what makes them so great!
“*Who knows, though? Blah could be a hermaphroditic lecturer on gender studies at Berkley, or a volunteer at Women’s Refuge, or what-have-you, and be able to couch his jokes about lesbians and appreciative comments regarding Hawt Chixx0rz in a deep understanding and appreciation of the world-view and societal experience of lesbians and other women. I’ll concede that point.”
Aww! You’re soo nice and cute! *pinches your cute wittle cheekses*
November 27, 2007 at 12:28 am
Heh, doesn’t make it wrong either… and it’s not about them being OK or not, it’s that in order to be upset and cry victim when somebody teases you or makes fun of you, you kind of have to not ever do it to anyone else, or else you’re just a hypocrit who can’t take their own behavior when directed at them.
There is a line between teasing and making fun of people, and making blanket assertions about their worth as human beings. Mr Cheung’s comic implies that the only way Ms Raymond could have anything to do with Assassin’s Creed would be by offering fellatio to potential customers. Teasing would have been, I don’t know, a comic where she was standing holding a copy of Assassin’s Creed, and no-one was interested in buying it until she tugged her skirt up a couple of inches. For example.
Plus, again, that whole self-righteous thing. Some people think they should somehow be given special priviledges just because they think a certain way or belong to a certain social group.
Its not about (women/ethnicities/whathaveyou) wanting special treatment, as wanting exactly the same treatment as anyone else. If Ms Raymond had been a man, Mr Cheung would not have made that cartoon, and it would never have crossed his mind that the only way she could contribute to Assassin’s Creed would be by fellatio.
Did you know that in any given “cause” only about 10% actually care about the cause and have thought about it, while the rest are just simply there because they want to “feel good” about “doing something”?
This looks suspiciously like something you just made up, sorry. I would be happy to retract that statement if you could show me a link to this research.
This means that most feminists are pretty much only there to whine about how hard they have it and so they can have a convenient excuse for why the world doesn’t work the way they think it should and how “it’s not fair”. The minority actually care about advancing the rights and equality of women.
… … ..?
The world doesn’t work the way *anyone* thinks it works because the
NeoconsFreemasons control everything. I thought we *covered* this. ^_^In my experience, anyone I’ve met who calls themselves a feminist aren’t the apathetic hangers-on you describe, but rather people who firmly believe that society has many overt and hidden ways of discriminating against just over half the population of the world and don’t think this is a good thing. And they all, in some small way, are trying to do something about this.
Maybe you just need to meet some more feminists. ^_^
In any case, as an aside, men and women simply aren’t equal and never will be. They aren’t equal because that’s just not how it is. Everything in our genes and in our natures goes against this idea simply because men and women are different.
Hee…
Men and Women are different, vis-a-vis, innies versus outies. This however is in no way an inherent indicator of a person’s abilities, worth, standing, or place in the social order. If a person’s genetics dictate these things, then all of America had better start apologizing to the UK for that whole rebelling-and-becoming-a-republic thing, ‘cos you just told God’s chosen one to rack off.
That can only end badly. Bears will eat you.
While it is true (and something I am a FIRM believer in) men and women are (and SHOULD be) of equal VALUE, they are not equal in nature, and they are simply not equals to each other. [...] They both have their own particular drives and interests and likes and dislikes, and that’s exactly what makes them so great!
So… men and women should both be allowed to vote, but she had better keep her ass in the kitchen? I don’t follow. Sorry, but, I don’t buy into evolutionary psychology, and even if it has some validity, then its no reason why we should construct our society around it- no more than we should base our concept of right and wrong on, say, erosion, or which direction a tree falls after it is hit by lightning.
Aww! You’re soo nice and cute! *pinches your cute wittle cheekses*
Knock that off, you. You gotta buy me dinner first.
November 29, 2007 at 8:28 am
There is a line between teasing and making fun of people, and making blanket assertions about their worth as human beings. Mr Cheung’s comic implies that the only way Ms Raymond could have anything to do with Assassin’s Creed would be by offering fellatio to potential customers.
Yup. As several people have already said, the most offensive thing about the strip is that she’s shown as someone who’s so extremely stupid that the ONLY way (at least in Cheung’s view) that she could be earning a salary in the gaming world is as a sex slave. (And again, it’s rather odd that Cheung would want to reinforce racist Western attitudes concerning the sexual proclivities of Asian or Eurasian women.)
March 25, 2008 at 5:01 am
“Yeah, he’s 25, but in the regressive-adolescent world of male gamers, chronological and emotional age aren’t always (or even usually) going to match up.”
I think everyone here completely missed Blah’s point. The fact that people are complaining about someone making a biased comment, and then turning around and making a biased comment themselves. Congrats Phoenix Woman, in an effort to show the world the degrading nature of this comic towards women in any position in the business world, you managed to alienate every male in the “gamer” world. The only difference between what you wrote, and what he drew, is the medium.
To simplify the point is: “If you are offended by someone using a stupid and insulting cliche, you have no business turning around and making stupid and insulting cliches yourself!”
I’m honestly failing to see how this went over every one else’s head here?
Also, if you bothered to look at the comic from the opposite angle, you’d realize he’s making just as much fun of male gamers. Your sentence reinforces these silly ideas and attitudes toward male gamers as well.
What was that Nietzsche said about fighting monsters? It appears to me that you have allowed yourself to become that which you are fighting.
Confessor - Male Gamer
Happily Married with 3 children.
My wife games with me.
Thank you very much. :)
March 25, 2008 at 5:54 am
I’m honestly failing to see how this went over every one else’s head here?
It didn’t.
Some of us (who also game) decided to not make an issue of it.
It’s not a matter of getting the point, or getting pissed off when you do.
It’s a matter of priority and magnitude. Given a choice, it’s usually better to deal with the most potentially destructive problems first, and leave the small potatoes for later.